Ben Stein, Anne Graham and Fear Mongering
I recently got one of those “forward this to all your friends” emails. It offended me so much that I wrote a response and sent it to all 100 or so people I found in the Forwarded by… list.
First the letter, and then my response.
The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary, Sunday, 12/18/05.
Here at this happy time of year, a few confessions from my beating heart: I have no freaking clue who Nick and Jessica are. I see them on the cover of People and Us constantly when I am buying my dog biscuits and kitty litter. I often ask the checkers at the grocery stores. They never know who Nick and Jessica are either. Who are they? Will it change my life if I know who they are and why they have broken up? Why are they so important? I don’t know who Lindsay Lohan is either, and I do not care at all about Tom Cruise’s wife.
Am I going to be called before a Senate committee and asked if I am a subversive? Maybe, but I just have no clue who Nick and Jessica are. If this is what it means to be no longer young. It’s not so bad.Next confession:
I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don’t feel threatened. I don’t feel discriminated against. That’s what they are: Christmas trees. It doesn’t bother me a bit when people say, “Merry Christmas” to me. I don’t think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I
kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn’t bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu. If people want a creche, it’s just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.
I don’t like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don’t think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can’t find it in the Constitution, and I don’t like it being shoved down my throat.
Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren’t allowed to worship God as we understand Him?
I guess that’s a sign that I’m getting old, too.
But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.
[start of second section. This break was not in the message sent to me. It just went right from the previous paragraph into the next]
In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke, it’s not funny, it’s intended to get you thinking.
Billy Graham’s daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her “How could God let something like this Happen?” (regarding Katrina)
Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, “I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we’ve been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.
And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?”
In light of recent events…terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O’Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn’t want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.
Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school . the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn’t spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock’s son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he’s talking about. And we said OK.
Now we’re asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don’t know right from wrong, and why it doesn’t bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with “WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.”
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world’s going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says!
Funny how you can send ‘jokes’ through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.
Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you’re not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it… no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don’t sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.
And my response to all hundred people.
If you believe in the God of the New Testament, then you should be horribly offended by Anne Graham’s disrespectful remarks. Since the birth of Christ, God has not sent a plague upon the earth.
While there was tremendous loss of property, the final death toll for this city of 1.2 million was less than 1,000 people. That’s how many Americans are killed in car accidents EVERY WEEK.
Does anyone today liken the great flu pandemic of 1918 to a plague or message sent by God? 20-40 million people were killed. If we don’t remember that as God’s hand, then Katrina was nothing and Billy Graham’s daughter is a dangerous fear monger that should be ignored.
In addition, Ben Stein is being misquoted. While he did say the first half of this quote on “CBS Sunday Morning”, he did not say the second half, the part starting, “In light of the many jokes we send…”
Christians believe in a loving God. What do you believe?
Lee Sonko
http://lee.org
After a day, I have not received any letters in response.
Not only is Ben Stein misquoted, but Benjamin Spock’s son did not kill himself, although his grandson did, and is in fact still alive. http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/drspock.htm
Ah, Maura got there ahead of me–I was also about to point out that Dr. Spock’s son did not commit suicide. But then again, I’m an obviously suspect source, since my own (never spanked) children are both about to graduate with honors from elite colleges. I can’t imagine how God missed them when smiting New Orleans!
I believe in a perfect, just God who doesn’t excuse sin. He is though, gracious, evident in the man Jesus. In who’s life the propitiation of sin has been provided.
An end to suffering in this life was ever promised. Name one person who never suffered?
Sean, what does your comment have to do with my post? And could you say what each of your sub-comments has to do with one another. They seem disjointed… “perfect God, “just God”, “God not excusing sin”, “gracious God, “propitian(sic) of sin”, “no promise of an end to suffering”…
Sean, your either a complete dope or I am confused by your comments in the first sentance of your responce both may be the case. A couple of questions would be; 1.Do you consider the birth of Christ a Plague or what “plague” came at that time? 2. How do you know God has not sent any real plagues since the NT? Do you think you have a personal hotline? Not to worry, your just a thin heart beat away from getting straight to ask Him.
Stan, you’re getting off the subject even more than Sean. Please stay on subject.
Lee,
I know this thread is 2 years old but I just came across it.
I think you have mistaken Anne Graham’s point. It isn’t disrespectful at all.
She is not asserting that God is sending Plagues upon us but that in rejecting God at a National level we are also rejecting His protection which has kept this nation preserved since it’s inception.
God has throughout human history allowed tribulation upon His people in order that they might turn to Him in Repentance. Also The God of the new testament is not different from The God of the Old. Someday the Lamb of God will return as avenging Judge and King.
You asked the question Lee I gave you my answer, nothing too complicated about it!
Sean, in my comment from 12-13-07 I asked you
In your latest comment, you answered nothing.
You continue to be disjointed. I have no idea what you are saying. Your comments are worthless.
Sorry Lee for the lack of clarity, I think Neutron Man makes a valid point. Anne Graham never said Katrina was God’s wrath.
It seems there’s a lot you’re not understanding besides my poor writing. I’m not convinced you want to hear it anyway
Sean, yes Anne Graham said that Katrina was God’s wrath. Please read the part from Anne Graham again. Here it is:
I believe it is fair to paraphrase this statement like so:
“Anne Graham says that God is sad that the Katrina disaster happened but He let it happen because we pushed God out of our schools, government and lives. And being the gentleman He is, He stepped back and didn’t stop the disaster the way he would have if we hadn’t pushed God out.”
To paraphrase even more, it is obvious that the statement means, “Since we pushed God out of our lives, He is voicing his displeasure by letting terrible things (like hurricanes) hurt us.” That sounds pretty fuckin’ wrath-like. Couldn’t he just use a phone call or a burning bush or something?
Can I guess that your reading would be more like this? “That wasn’t god’s wrath, that was just god refusing to protect us from the dangerous world he normally protects us from because… because… umm, well, you know, he’s just a tiny bit miffed at us we won’t let him in our schools, government or lives. It’s not ‘wrath’ per se, it’s just… well, you know how God can be.”
Sean, on another point, you still haven’t even attempted to clarify any of the statements you have made.
This is all present tense NT revelation… please read…
Romans 1:16-32
I am not bible bashing anyone, but I wanted to let you know that the just, loving God (Jesus) of the Bible, is gathering, protecting, and providing for the remnant of believers who follow His lead. We all are eligible to live in the secret place God has provided under the covering of His Son, but God will not be mocked.
Billy Graham’s daughter may or may not have said it how it is written, but her perspective justifies a God who is constantly crying out the world to flee the youthful lusts and hide themselves from His wrath in Christ.
By the way, death is not punishment…
Isaiah 57:1-2
There is only one righteousness and it is revealed by faith.
God loved us all enough to send people destined to die to give us (without any cost out of our pockets or lives) all the truth and it will be revealed to all who agree with God by the Holy Spirit.
Anne’s prophetic voice is a revelation.
Zoe
Tell me if I’m paraphrasing correctly:
Romans 16-18: You’ll get the wrath of God if you don’t live justly.
19-21: Everybody knows what “just” means… then something about invisible stuff I can’t figure out.
22-25: Pagans and atheists are going to hell.
26-27 ??
28-32 Heavy duty sinners (“murder, envy etc…), regular sinners (“unmerciful, wickedness etc…”), mad scientists (“inventors of evil things”), kids that don’t listen to their parents (“disobedient to parents”), and anybody that hangs out with any of these reprobates (“not only do the same, but also consent with them” are “worthy of death”
Yipe! I’m due to get wrathed a whole bunch of ways.
First they came…
>By the way, death is not punishment…
The section you quote has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. You’re just jumping around the bible grabbing quotes for the fun of it. The section you quote starts out with “The righteous….”. But the section we are talking about has nothing to do with the righteous.
But Zoe, I’ll do you one better. While you are welcome to quote any part of the bible you like, I prefer to keep things in context. You quoted the end of Romans 1. Let’s look at the beginning of Romans 2:1-9, which I will start to paraphrase before I get completely bored with this subject.
And remember that this is the very next paragraph after that “sinners are worthy of death” paragraph.
My paraphrasing, “Therefore you can’t pass judgement on anyone else because that’s God’s job. If you do that, you’re building up your own little store of wrath buddy-boy. If you’re good, you’ll get eternal life. If not, you’ll get wrath, anger and “trouble.”
Sounds like death is pretty bad in the context of wrath, anger and trouble.
Zoe, you also write:
First, what the hell is “fleeing youthful lusts”?
Second, God is “constantly crying out”? And he’s doing it by drowning a couple thousand people in New Orleans? That’s stupid. That’s not “constant”, nor is it “crying out”. And New Orleans? If God is taking suggestions, I’d recommend a volcano to wipe out the sinners in Las Vegas, or maybe a pandemic in Amsterdam to kill off all those prostitutes, or how about a contagious brain disease to stop all those spammers in Nigeria? Heck, how about a deadly STD to kill all the gays in San Francisco? Oop, we saw how well that last wrath went. Maybe some of those, but a dam in New Orleans? No.
May I point out that the first and second videos on Zoe’s web site, showing samples of his work experience contains long clips from a faith healer, Brian Lake Ministries, shown “bowling over” many church-goers and curing a woman’s back pain.
Hey Lee,
I love your candor, btw.
I am a videographer with 2 kids, a beautiful wife, I work for a news station, produce documentaries of healings and miracles. And Brian Lake and his family are wonderful. Even his children have written books about their international missionary experiences. Pretty inspiring.
But, to focus on the subject: God is crying out to people to turn before the disaster takes them. The righteous are those who are in Christ… it’s pretty simple. God is eager to speak to everyone to get them out of the way of disasters, but for the most part man is not listening.
And what is really disturbing is that most people would rather accept the delusion of rhetoric than face the fact that God is in love with them and really wants to see them safe and prosperous. Most are like me and it takes disasters and loss to bring them to the point of surrendering their faulty ideas and grossly misinterpreted theologies. He doesn’t want us taken in a flood. He did that before and the only one listening was Noah. This time He sent His Son on a cross as a constant reminder of where we need to look find the truth and safety.
BTW,
God loves you Lee and so do I.
Zoe
Lee wrote, (concerning Romans 2:1-9)
“My paraphrasing, “Therefore you can’t pass judgement on anyone else because that’s God’s job. If you do that, you’re building up your own little store of wrath buddy-boy. If you’re good, you’ll get eternal life. If not, you’ll get wrath, anger and “trouble.”
Zoe says:
I couldn’t agree with you more. Paul agrees with us, too. Here are verses 3-5
3 And do you think or imagine, O man, when you judge and condemn those who practice such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape God’s judgment and elude His sentence and adverse verdict?
4 Or are you [so blind as to] trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant [of the fact] that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repent ([a]to change your mind and inner man to accept God’s will)?
5But by your callous stubbornness and impenitence of heart you are storing up wrath and indignation for yourself on the day of wrath and indignation, when God’s righteous judgment (just doom) will be revealed.
I really want to learn to love like God… He is so patient and merciful, but He will not be mocked.
Zoe
Zoe, I made several points and you ignored them. Do not mindlessly evangelize at me. It is rude.
I said you were jumping around the bible and implied you were taking bible phrases out of context. You didn’t answer my claim.
I put your quote in context and you didn’t discuss that.
I pointed out that you were incorrect about death not being punishment and you didn’t discuss that.
I asked about “fleeing youthful lusts”. You didn’t discuss.
The whole point of my post and some of my comments was to show that, no, God isn’t “constantly crying out”. I put together some good evidence. You didn’t discuss.
I pointed out your relationship with a modern faith healer and you… wow, you responded saying that, yes, you have witnessed and videotaped him performing miracles. That’s pretty fringe stuff, you know. “Kooky” if you will. Dare I say “Nutter”. Well, at least I know where you stand.
You wrote, “I couldn’t agree with you more. Paul agrees with us, too. Here are verses 3-5”
First, don’t try that stupid trick on me. There is no “us”.
Second, I very strongly recommend you actually READ the bible instead of doing computer queries.
Third, my attention span is not that short. Go back and read the point I was making. Your quote reinforces my interpretation, not yours.
You write, “I really want to learn to love like God… He is so patient and merciful, but He will not be mocked.”
You’ve written twice about how God “won’t be mocked”. I can only interpret that to mean something like, “Lee, God refuses to be mocked by what you are saying about him. He will do something bad to you like bust a dam on your town if you don’t quit it.” Do you actually believe what you’re saying? No, wait, let me rephrase that. Do you actually know what you are saying? That’s some fucking patient and merciful god you’ve got there.
Zoe, this is my blog and my discussion. Either discuss the topics at hand or go elsewhere.
Lee worte: “I said you were jumping around the bible and implied you were taking bible phrases out of context. You didn’t answer my claim.”
Your claims are unfounded, but you are entitled to your opinion and I can’t argue with your opinion, but I did present a God who will reveal His wrath and still wait until the sin of a people is full before they are punished.
Lee wrote: “I pointed out that you were incorrect about death not being punishment and you didn’t discuss that.”
“to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” 2 Cor 5:8
So I guess you are right… for some to be present with the Lord is going to be a severely, punishing situation, but not for those who love Him.
Lee wrote: “I asked about “fleeing youthful lusts”. You didn’t discuss.”
The youthful lusts are those desires that we foolishly pursue as children and continue to perpetuate into our adult lives. Most of them are vain, selfish, and proud, bearing a harvest of thorns in our lives.
And God is crying out everyday, through His servants, through His Word, and through nature itself. Hence, man is without excuse. But God is patient… there is a day of judgment coming that all men must face. Because you will never stop seeing. Even when our bodies fail… we will still be seeing. Even those that have died and said they didn’t see anything must realize that they are testifying against themselves that they saw nothing.
Lee wrote: “Second, I very strongly recommend you actually READ the bible instead of doing computer queries.”
Actually I have read the bible a few times, and now, scripture passages concerning things people talk about just come to me, but you are quite funny… and it’s good to see someone exercising their prophetic gifting.
Lee wrote: “Third, my attention span is not that short. Go back and read the point I was making. Your quote reinforces my interpretation, not yours.”
I think maybe you are implying that I am judging someone and therefore I need apply the truth to myself. I am willing to stand before the Lord for my deeds. I have peace with God through the shed blood of Christ. Truly, I am presenting justification for Anne’s perspective… do you feel like I am judging you?
Lee wrote: “You’ve written twice about how God “won’t be mocked”. I can only interpret that to mean something like, “Lee, God refuses to be mocked by what you are saying about him. He will do something bad to you like bust a dam on your town if you don’t quit it.” Do you actually believe what you’re saying? No, wait, let me rephrase that. Do you actually know what you are saying? That’s some fucking patient and merciful god you’ve got there.”
You are eloquently misinterpreting me… “God will not be mocked”: This refers to people being held accountable for their deeds. Even those who say the right things will be punished if their hearts aren’t made right by faith in a God who can change their heart.
I am not God. If I was God people who turned from me (since I created them) would be destroyed and taken back to the drawing board and their soul would be given to my adversary. Man judges the outward appearance, but God judges the heart. I don’t know anyone’s heart, but I do know what the bible says concerning man’s actions and the consequences that result as a product.
And Lee this is your world… so I knock the dust off my sandals, but God remain with you and your family, in peace.
Be blessed and be reconciled,
Zoe
Zoe, you don’t even realize you’re not making sense, do you?
Please go away.
Just as I thought. I am glad the first part is accurate.
Lee you are too funny! I have been following the various comments and I have enjoyed your responses. But I wanted to intervene before your suggestions get through to GOD: I hope that I am not too late with my appeal for all those “non” sinners in Las Vegas. I once attended a broadcasters conference there so I have it on good authority that not everyone there are true sinners that deserves the wrath of GOD…
“Wrath of God” is an interesting concept. As I subscriber to the kind & loving kind of GOD myself I am appalled by the the vengeful GOD-types. These people are scary. And they will stop at nothing to promote their scary stuff. I guess they don’t make the link between global warming and the increase in extreme weather.
“If you believe in the God of the New Testament, then you should be horribly offended by Anne Graham’s disrespectful remarks. Since the birth of Christ, God has not sent a plague upon the earth.”
I found this interesting. Anne didn’t say that God would send a plague. She said He started to remove His hand in things as we asked. I believe she intended to imply that He didn’t intervine and allowed people to do what people are capable of. I’m still not sure how this is disrespectful to all believing Christians. Aside from the natural disasters, it’s people that drive cars recklessly, people that fly planes into buildings, and people that shoot people in schools. People are capable of some serious crap regardless of whether they’re believers or not. God was/is capable of intervening in any of these situations.
“While there was tremendous loss of property, the final death toll for this city of 1.2 million was less than 1,000 people. That’s how many Americans are killed in car accidents EVERY WEEK. Does anyone today liken the great flu pandemic of 1918 to a plague or message sent by God? 20-40 million people were killed. If we don’t remember that as God’s hand, then Katrina was nothing and Billy Graham’s daughter is a dangerous fear monger that should be ignored.”
Again, I think you misunderstand her intent. We’ve basically said we don’t need you God and so He lets us have our way. It’s an ugly world without Him cause it’s full of people that do crap. I imagine hell is much like a world where God’s hand isn’t in.
Personally, I know that bad stuff still can happen to me as a believer–the Bible’s chalked full of bad stuff happening to guys like me. God’s not my personal protection plan. But usually good stuff results…and in the end of every tragic Bible story, He was with every believer when bad stuff happened. He never once abandoned them.
“In addition, Ben Stein is being misquoted. While he did say the first half of this quote on “CBS Sunday Morning”, he did not say the second half, the part starting, “In light of the many jokes we send…””
Author was adding his take on Ben’s statement. I agree that this should have been pointed out. I personally hate emails that make you feel guilty if you don’t forward. :) Christian or otherwise. That’s stupid. A good Word doesn’t get promulgated on the basis of guilt, but on merit.
“Christians believe in a loving God. What do you believe?”
This last statement seems out of place to me. And perhaps you can shed some light on it. Are you implying that God isn’t loving if He went away when we asked as Anne suggested? Or are you implying that God isn’t loving because He allows for natural disasters and free will (people doing bad things)?
Ken
>I found this interesting. Anne didn’t say that God would send a plague
Anne strongly implied that God “didn’t stop” a dam from breaking, causing a flood and loss of life. Flood = plague.
Anne didn’t imply. She basically said God didn’t stop it. He didn’t obviously. Doesn’t mean He caused it. If you witness the murder of someone, and didn’t stop it are you guilty of murder?
We wanted to be left to our own devices and when we were, you’re complaining about it and blaming God for it?
So if God had been watching the city and dam, would he have stopped it from breaking?
This is just too inane a discussion. Both religious commenters are saying how God was “pushed out” of New Orleans, a miracle happened… or didn’t happen, and then the dam broke. It’s fucking New Orleans, not Sodom and not Gomorrah. Go get a life people.
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